"what’s on my mind right now is, have I done all I could? Is there anything left to say? Have I missed anything? Could I still snap her out of this? Did I protect the pathway home and for her to reclaim womanhood? Have I…could I…did I…? "
This echoes in my head daily as my daughter speeds toward turning 18 in Sept. All of that. And also, urgently trying to figure out a miracle sentence or article or video, that will turn all of this around in these next 3 months. The clock is ticking. Getting louder and louder as if in a horror movie. This month marks 4 years that we have been struggling through this. I hold too tightly to the hope that she can critically think her way out of this. That if I just drop enough seeds, the doubts will grow and blossom.
I'm going to quote my guest, Peavy, from the podcast episode, The Deeply Meaning Work of Motherhood: "Releasing a young adult to their fate, truly accepting that you did your best, refocusing on your own future, and seeing that you can find joy and purpose again in life is a deeply meaningful process. You are on your own hero's journey, whatever the outcome." And it's certainly not lost on me that you quoted me--I do still grapple with my responsibility as the day she is legally accountable for her choices quickly approaches. At what point does this become her work? I know I have a few more things I want her to hear from me and then I need to allow my role in her life to change to something that will be new for both of us. I'm so curious how this year will unfold and how our relationship with evolve. I want her to know I trust she can overcome anything!
I’d like to know if you have any information about the side effects of stopping menstruation all together? Both my NB identifies daughters are doing this and started one at 18 and the other at 16 without telling me.
I'll bet Isabella Malbin at Whose Body Is It could help you with this. I know for myself, hormonal birth control was no bueno and I stopped it in my mid-20s. I would now consider it against my values when it comes to medical interventions, but I can't describe the actual physical effects. I just know messing with our natural hormones is unwise. Isabella may have some content though that would be helpful.
I am quite seriously as impressed as hell with the thoroughness, breadth, and depth of your commitment to your kids. And to other parents and their kids in similar situations. I can well imagine the devastation that it causes, though it really doesn't take a lot of imagination given the ubiquity of horrific tales describing it.
Not sure what might be the worst feature of it, though Shakespeare's "How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child" may provide some inklings - something which I think you've periodically alluded to.
However, while I've sort of asked this question before, I have to say that this statement of yours is almost totally unfathomable:
"... they lie to her and encourage her to believe she can be–no, is somehow–a boy."
Surely, you've explained to her, her high school biology teachers have explained to her that to be a female is to have functioning ovaries? That to be a male (and a post-pubescent boy) is to have functioning testicles? That she doesn't possess and won't ever possess the latter? That therefore she simply can never be a male and a boy?
Though the "cognitive distortion" associated with the phenomenon is legendary and all-encompassing. I've had a few exchanges with "Kimberleg" who is apparently a young woman - she's said she has functioning ovaries - but who seems to be shading over into insisting she has a "male gender identity". It's in a YouTube video by UK MP Miriam Cates who is asking, "Should 'Non Binary' be recognised in law as a gender identity?":
But a comment by Kimberleg seems to provide something of an insight into that distortion:
"... but any 'identity' does not necessarily have physical or biological evidence, it is part of who you are as a person, an individual. It's not about agreeing, it's about respect."
Though I'm not sure whether that link is entirely solid - her comment there above doesn't show up in with the rest of our conversation linked here below; maybe she or YouTube are hiding it somehow:
But as I've argued in that linked comment, she and far too many others seem reluctant to consider that social rights and benefits tend to be contingent on being members of particular categories with objective criteria for category membership. And that "gender identity" - to the extent there's no "physical or biological evidence" for being in the claimed state - simply can not be given any credence at all.
But maybe that's part and parcel of what you mean by "Agents of Futility".
Yes, it is definitely what I mean by "agents of futility." Parents shouldn't even have to be in this role when it comes to biology because reality itself acts as the agent of futility. The cognitive work it takes to convince oneself that they are the opposite sex can only last, for the sane, anyway imo, if they regularly "go to church" and have it reinforced and demand unquestioning respect for their belief. When I ask my child what she means by the request to be "seen as a boy" she cannot explain, only that she wants it. In these rare conversations, I reiterate my understanding of what a boy is and what a girl is and that until there's something more concrete to the concept of "transgender", it remains an unfalsifiable belief system, much like a religion, and I'm not a believer. And even if we have different belief systems, I will still love her, always and forever.
I've also recently lifted other belief systems that don't allow questioning and villify those that have left the "faith" or system that discourages research outside of the information they provide. Right now my kid seems pretty committed. This doctrine is pervasive and most don't even recognize they've adopted the nonsense--they're just "being kind" and "inclusive." If you've not discovered, CutDownTree here on Substack, I'd encourage checking out his work. He describes the how and why this is working so well to capture the culture.
You may also enjoy the work of rapper, Francis Aaron, on YouTube. I sense your frustration at the ridiculousness of it all. Trust me, the parents here know that frustration. It can turn to fury which can be detrimental to the relationship.
Thanks muchly for the confirmation and elaboration. And for the recommendations - will look into Aaron later, but now subscribed to CutDownTree. 🙂
Took a brief look at his "Gender Identity Isn't Real", and will need to do a more thorough analysis later, but, offhand, it seems that many are failing to differentiate between gender itself - which has at least a few more or less tenable and objective correlates - and gender identity - which is largely if not entirely subjective. A decent kick at that kitty by another Substacker, Lisa Selin Davis [LSD?], who has pointed out that:
"But the definition [for gender] in this book is the one most kids are learning today. .... In other words, an entire generation is learning that gender is synonymous with gender 'identity'. ...."
Wikipedia's article on "Gender" credibly endorses the same dichotomy - even if they've jumped the shark in other aspects, notably in slavishly gushing over Judith Butler and pandering to the transgendered by endorsing the claim that transwoman and Olympian Laurel Hubbard has "transitioned to female":
But I think that ties in at a profoundly fundamental level with your "they regularly 'go to church' and have it reinforced" which I agree wholeheartedly with. However, the problem there is that "the church" in question encompasses a very large number of ostensibly credible but quite contradictory sources, "deacons", and "preachers" from various bully pulpits - such as the book that Davis referred to, along with various so-called biologists, academics, journals, and "newspapers of record" such as Emma Hilton, "Scientific" American, and the New York Times.
Given such a wide spectrum of conflicting sources, too many of them often talking out of both sides of their mouths for flagrantly self-serving "reasons", it is little wonder so many kids are "dazed and confused". A bigger wonder is that more aren't.
But more particularly, Hilton and her partners in crime - "biologists" Heather Heying and Colin Wright - peddle a profoundly unscientific definition for the sexes, albeit a binary one in a letter to the UK Times (hardly a peer-reviewed biological journal), that asserts one doesn't actually have to be able to reproduce to qualify as male or female:
However, that is flatly contradicted by standard scientific, logical, lexical, and biological definitions by which functional gonads are the "sine qua non", the necessary and sufficient conditions for sex category membership:
"Nothing in the biological definition of sex requires that every organism be a member of one sex or the other. That might seem surprising, but it follows naturally from DEFINING each sex by the ability to do one thing: make eggs or make sperm. Some organisms can do both, while some can't do either [ergo, sexless]."
And, rounding out that spectrum - so to speak - of definitions, if not a dog's breakfast of them, there's the "Scientific" American article which goes whole-hog, off into the weeds, and crosses the Rubicon in style by boldly asserting that sex itself is entirely a spectrum:
That, as so-called philosopher Kathleen Stock and "biologist" Anne Fausto-Sterling themselves have put it:
“there is no hard and fast ‘essence’ to biological sex, at least in our everyday sense: no set of characteristics a male or female must have, to count as such.” ... “there is no single biological measure that unassailably places each and every human into one of two categories — male or female”:
As for that so-called "newspaper of record" - I'm tempted to cancel my subscription, put it to better use here 🙂, as they're hardly better than the National Enquirer - see their recent article, "What Lia Thomas Could Mean for Women’s Elite Sports":
Maybe a decent article in at least providing something of an overview of the issue, and in drawing attention to the "core of distinctions between gender identity and biological sex". However, they subsequently shoot themselves in the feet, muddy the waters, add to the confusion, and pander to the delusional with profoundly ignorant and quite unscientific claptrap, and with ubiquitous but quite egregious phrases such as:
"Lia Thomas, a transgender woman"; "transgender female athletes"; "male athlete transitions to female"
With those phrases they're basically endorsing the view that some women and some females can have penises. Which, of course and as you probably know, is the "petard" by which much of the entire UK Labour Party is being "hoisted" - couldn't happen to a "nicer" or more clueless bunch:
But such a clusterfuck of "ridiculousness", of pretty much everyone - males, females, and otherkin; and their dogs, cats, and gerbils - riding madly off in all directions - few of whom seem to know whether they're on foot or horseback. 'Tis enough to make one cry.
And profoundly depresssing, not least because there are so many, mostly dysphoric and autistic children who deserve far better, and who are paying such an unnecessarily draconian price - which pretty much damns us all.
Howevever, to bring this overly long response to a close - sorry about that Chief 🙂, I think we need to "get the science right" on this issue since I think it has a great deal of relevance to a great many issues far outside "just a small circle of friends". As I put it in another comment here, the transgender phenomenon provides something of a profoundly illuminating insight into how we all develop our senses of self. Konrad Lorenz in his "Civilized Man's Eight Deadly Sins" - highly recommended - argued that:
"Far from being an insurmountable obstacle to the analysis of an organic system, a pathological disorder is often the key to understanding it. We know of many cases in the history of physiology where a scientist became aware of an important organic system only after a pathological disturbance had caused its disease. [pg2]"
I would like to ask if there is any good article to recommend to read for my son, so he can maybe get an understanding of what is the operation about and how dangerous it is etc
I asked him just today if he read anything about that subject he said that yes, couple of articles, then i said can i give him something to read about it he said ok, maybe, so i think yes, but i have nothing to give him to read, i am not prepared
I am just freaking out and sometimes wish to wake up from the nightmare
Lots of parents are experiencing the same nightmare. It's a frightening situation, but you're not alone. There are some young male writers on Substack who used to want to change gender: TullipR and CutDownTree both write about their experiences. You may want to visit genspect.org, parentsofrogdkids.org, and inspiredteentherapy.com for guidance and resources. I also coach parents, and you can reach out to me at stoicmom@protonmail.com
Thank you for your answer. Also I just would like to know that if my son doesn’t change his clothes or name is it a good sign or what is it? What should I expect, that he want to change it soon? Do you have any examples
Hi, i was not expecting to receive an answer so quick. He told us he would like to change gender last summer but he didn’t change his name or clothes, just talked once about it and then we, I don’t know how shall i call all that, we, his parents are in shock and trying to talk to him. He doesn’t talk about it. However he wears his male clothes and in the college he is a young man called Leo. He only change some times clothes with his friends and couple of them call him Leya. I don’t know what to do really. We are working hard just to keep things normal, for the last 10 months we have spend more time together, he never wear any girls outfit in public. We call him Leo (Leonardo) and he seems ok with it. He has a therapist, well i found one that believes in traditional gender roles and that there is no such thing as boy was born as a girls
"what’s on my mind right now is, have I done all I could? Is there anything left to say? Have I missed anything? Could I still snap her out of this? Did I protect the pathway home and for her to reclaim womanhood? Have I…could I…did I…? "
This echoes in my head daily as my daughter speeds toward turning 18 in Sept. All of that. And also, urgently trying to figure out a miracle sentence or article or video, that will turn all of this around in these next 3 months. The clock is ticking. Getting louder and louder as if in a horror movie. This month marks 4 years that we have been struggling through this. I hold too tightly to the hope that she can critically think her way out of this. That if I just drop enough seeds, the doubts will grow and blossom.
I'm going to quote my guest, Peavy, from the podcast episode, The Deeply Meaning Work of Motherhood: "Releasing a young adult to their fate, truly accepting that you did your best, refocusing on your own future, and seeing that you can find joy and purpose again in life is a deeply meaningful process. You are on your own hero's journey, whatever the outcome." And it's certainly not lost on me that you quoted me--I do still grapple with my responsibility as the day she is legally accountable for her choices quickly approaches. At what point does this become her work? I know I have a few more things I want her to hear from me and then I need to allow my role in her life to change to something that will be new for both of us. I'm so curious how this year will unfold and how our relationship with evolve. I want her to know I trust she can overcome anything!
In solidarity!
I’d like to know if you have any information about the side effects of stopping menstruation all together? Both my NB identifies daughters are doing this and started one at 18 and the other at 16 without telling me.
I'll bet Isabella Malbin at Whose Body Is It could help you with this. I know for myself, hormonal birth control was no bueno and I stopped it in my mid-20s. I would now consider it against my values when it comes to medical interventions, but I can't describe the actual physical effects. I just know messing with our natural hormones is unwise. Isabella may have some content though that would be helpful.
I am quite seriously as impressed as hell with the thoroughness, breadth, and depth of your commitment to your kids. And to other parents and their kids in similar situations. I can well imagine the devastation that it causes, though it really doesn't take a lot of imagination given the ubiquity of horrific tales describing it.
Not sure what might be the worst feature of it, though Shakespeare's "How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child" may provide some inklings - something which I think you've periodically alluded to.
However, while I've sort of asked this question before, I have to say that this statement of yours is almost totally unfathomable:
"... they lie to her and encourage her to believe she can be–no, is somehow–a boy."
Surely, you've explained to her, her high school biology teachers have explained to her that to be a female is to have functioning ovaries? That to be a male (and a post-pubescent boy) is to have functioning testicles? That she doesn't possess and won't ever possess the latter? That therefore she simply can never be a male and a boy?
Though the "cognitive distortion" associated with the phenomenon is legendary and all-encompassing. I've had a few exchanges with "Kimberleg" who is apparently a young woman - she's said she has functioning ovaries - but who seems to be shading over into insisting she has a "male gender identity". It's in a YouTube video by UK MP Miriam Cates who is asking, "Should 'Non Binary' be recognised in law as a gender identity?":
But a comment by Kimberleg seems to provide something of an insight into that distortion:
"... but any 'identity' does not necessarily have physical or biological evidence, it is part of who you are as a person, an individual. It's not about agreeing, it's about respect."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HMjnPc_O6M&lc=UgxCOpXABzqX3VIYTRl4AaABAg.9bUppNxyWgO9bcWpCPpCaA
Though I'm not sure whether that link is entirely solid - her comment there above doesn't show up in with the rest of our conversation linked here below; maybe she or YouTube are hiding it somehow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HMjnPc_O6M&lc=UgxCOpXABzqX3VIYTRl4AaABAg.9bUppNxyWgO9bcSjvCx68H
But as I've argued in that linked comment, she and far too many others seem reluctant to consider that social rights and benefits tend to be contingent on being members of particular categories with objective criteria for category membership. And that "gender identity" - to the extent there's no "physical or biological evidence" for being in the claimed state - simply can not be given any credence at all.
But maybe that's part and parcel of what you mean by "Agents of Futility".
Yes, it is definitely what I mean by "agents of futility." Parents shouldn't even have to be in this role when it comes to biology because reality itself acts as the agent of futility. The cognitive work it takes to convince oneself that they are the opposite sex can only last, for the sane, anyway imo, if they regularly "go to church" and have it reinforced and demand unquestioning respect for their belief. When I ask my child what she means by the request to be "seen as a boy" she cannot explain, only that she wants it. In these rare conversations, I reiterate my understanding of what a boy is and what a girl is and that until there's something more concrete to the concept of "transgender", it remains an unfalsifiable belief system, much like a religion, and I'm not a believer. And even if we have different belief systems, I will still love her, always and forever.
I've also recently lifted other belief systems that don't allow questioning and villify those that have left the "faith" or system that discourages research outside of the information they provide. Right now my kid seems pretty committed. This doctrine is pervasive and most don't even recognize they've adopted the nonsense--they're just "being kind" and "inclusive." If you've not discovered, CutDownTree here on Substack, I'd encourage checking out his work. He describes the how and why this is working so well to capture the culture.
You may also enjoy the work of rapper, Francis Aaron, on YouTube. I sense your frustration at the ridiculousness of it all. Trust me, the parents here know that frustration. It can turn to fury which can be detrimental to the relationship.
Thanks muchly for the confirmation and elaboration. And for the recommendations - will look into Aaron later, but now subscribed to CutDownTree. 🙂
Took a brief look at his "Gender Identity Isn't Real", and will need to do a more thorough analysis later, but, offhand, it seems that many are failing to differentiate between gender itself - which has at least a few more or less tenable and objective correlates - and gender identity - which is largely if not entirely subjective. A decent kick at that kitty by another Substacker, Lisa Selin Davis [LSD?], who has pointed out that:
"But the definition [for gender] in this book is the one most kids are learning today. .... In other words, an entire generation is learning that gender is synonymous with gender 'identity'. ...."
https://lisaselindavis.substack.com/p/what-are-your-kids-learning-about?s=r
Wikipedia's article on "Gender" credibly endorses the same dichotomy - even if they've jumped the shark in other aspects, notably in slavishly gushing over Judith Butler and pandering to the transgendered by endorsing the claim that transwoman and Olympian Laurel Hubbard has "transitioned to female":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender
But I think that ties in at a profoundly fundamental level with your "they regularly 'go to church' and have it reinforced" which I agree wholeheartedly with. However, the problem there is that "the church" in question encompasses a very large number of ostensibly credible but quite contradictory sources, "deacons", and "preachers" from various bully pulpits - such as the book that Davis referred to, along with various so-called biologists, academics, journals, and "newspapers of record" such as Emma Hilton, "Scientific" American, and the New York Times.
Given such a wide spectrum of conflicting sources, too many of them often talking out of both sides of their mouths for flagrantly self-serving "reasons", it is little wonder so many kids are "dazed and confused". A bigger wonder is that more aren't.
But more particularly, Hilton and her partners in crime - "biologists" Heather Heying and Colin Wright - peddle a profoundly unscientific definition for the sexes, albeit a binary one in a letter to the UK Times (hardly a peer-reviewed biological journal), that asserts one doesn't actually have to be able to reproduce to qualify as male or female:
https://twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1207663359589527554
However, that is flatly contradicted by standard scientific, logical, lexical, and biological definitions by which functional gonads are the "sine qua non", the necessary and sufficient conditions for sex category membership:
"Nothing in the biological definition of sex requires that every organism be a member of one sex or the other. That might seem surprising, but it follows naturally from DEFINING each sex by the ability to do one thing: make eggs or make sperm. Some organisms can do both, while some can't do either [ergo, sexless]."
https://aeon.co/essays/the-existence-of-biological-sex-is-no-constraint-on-human-diversity
https://academic.oup.com/molehr/article/20/12/1161/1062990 (see their Glossary)
And, rounding out that spectrum - so to speak - of definitions, if not a dog's breakfast of them, there's the "Scientific" American article which goes whole-hog, off into the weeds, and crosses the Rubicon in style by boldly asserting that sex itself is entirely a spectrum:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/
That, as so-called philosopher Kathleen Stock and "biologist" Anne Fausto-Sterling themselves have put it:
“there is no hard and fast ‘essence’ to biological sex, at least in our everyday sense: no set of characteristics a male or female must have, to count as such.” ... “there is no single biological measure that unassailably places each and every human into one of two categories — male or female”:
https://medium.com/@steersmann/reality-and-illusion-being-vs-identifying-as-77f9618b17c7
As for that so-called "newspaper of record" - I'm tempted to cancel my subscription, put it to better use here 🙂, as they're hardly better than the National Enquirer - see their recent article, "What Lia Thomas Could Mean for Women’s Elite Sports":
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/29/us/lia-thomas-women-sports.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DIDmwTiPkORIyB8gLRZa1mbsB2wDOeSdkEK6coXuBpiO9DOkgnAy-Znqy5orVXaSMktdD0GWosw5PGWb1_-mOxYjLneOo6yrCy5VfbbGK7RPSJ03c-cwhn9MBmcQ76iSQD1b6FRrAuoqR22_gnDpl4Qj4SNmLd77SzVUIIaJjRZQrc6wI2R-heRTvR-NWe4LkKew1ZYknUGDI9uS1vrYMBZ65Eefr3PBUie8HhgLoOCWwOL46hBJw5R4i8hKwd008TDvMFxntHzJRKk4Ns&smid=url-share
Maybe a decent article in at least providing something of an overview of the issue, and in drawing attention to the "core of distinctions between gender identity and biological sex". However, they subsequently shoot themselves in the feet, muddy the waters, add to the confusion, and pander to the delusional with profoundly ignorant and quite unscientific claptrap, and with ubiquitous but quite egregious phrases such as:
"Lia Thomas, a transgender woman"; "transgender female athletes"; "male athlete transitions to female"
With those phrases they're basically endorsing the view that some women and some females can have penises. Which, of course and as you probably know, is the "petard" by which much of the entire UK Labour Party is being "hoisted" - couldn't happen to a "nicer" or more clueless bunch:
https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/keir-starmer-just-about-believes?s=r
But such a clusterfuck of "ridiculousness", of pretty much everyone - males, females, and otherkin; and their dogs, cats, and gerbils - riding madly off in all directions - few of whom seem to know whether they're on foot or horseback. 'Tis enough to make one cry.
And profoundly depresssing, not least because there are so many, mostly dysphoric and autistic children who deserve far better, and who are paying such an unnecessarily draconian price - which pretty much damns us all.
Howevever, to bring this overly long response to a close - sorry about that Chief 🙂, I think we need to "get the science right" on this issue since I think it has a great deal of relevance to a great many issues far outside "just a small circle of friends". As I put it in another comment here, the transgender phenomenon provides something of a profoundly illuminating insight into how we all develop our senses of self. Konrad Lorenz in his "Civilized Man's Eight Deadly Sins" - highly recommended - argued that:
"Far from being an insurmountable obstacle to the analysis of an organic system, a pathological disorder is often the key to understanding it. We know of many cases in the history of physiology where a scientist became aware of an important organic system only after a pathological disturbance had caused its disease. [pg2]"
https://stoicmom.substack.com/p/what-hurts-most/comment/6162643?s=r
See also the link to Woody Allen's Zelig.
I would like to ask if there is any good article to recommend to read for my son, so he can maybe get an understanding of what is the operation about and how dangerous it is etc
Is he open to reading things? How long has he been trans-identified?
I asked him just today if he read anything about that subject he said that yes, couple of articles, then i said can i give him something to read about it he said ok, maybe, so i think yes, but i have nothing to give him to read, i am not prepared
I am just freaking out and sometimes wish to wake up from the nightmare
Lots of parents are experiencing the same nightmare. It's a frightening situation, but you're not alone. There are some young male writers on Substack who used to want to change gender: TullipR and CutDownTree both write about their experiences. You may want to visit genspect.org, parentsofrogdkids.org, and inspiredteentherapy.com for guidance and resources. I also coach parents, and you can reach out to me at stoicmom@protonmail.com
Thank you for your answer. Also I just would like to know that if my son doesn’t change his clothes or name is it a good sign or what is it? What should I expect, that he want to change it soon? Do you have any examples
It's difficult to say what this means for him. "Transgender" is a pretty broad umbrella term these days.
Hi, i was not expecting to receive an answer so quick. He told us he would like to change gender last summer but he didn’t change his name or clothes, just talked once about it and then we, I don’t know how shall i call all that, we, his parents are in shock and trying to talk to him. He doesn’t talk about it. However he wears his male clothes and in the college he is a young man called Leo. He only change some times clothes with his friends and couple of them call him Leya. I don’t know what to do really. We are working hard just to keep things normal, for the last 10 months we have spend more time together, he never wear any girls outfit in public. We call him Leo (Leonardo) and he seems ok with it. He has a therapist, well i found one that believes in traditional gender roles and that there is no such thing as boy was born as a girls
It sounds like you did well finding a traditional therapist. This can be really difficult in some places. What country are you in?
We are in UK in London
And what is trans-identified?
someone who claims or believes themselves to be transgender; someone who "would like to change gender"